Karen Haller (01:12): Oh, thank you for having me. 

Sue Wadden (01:13): Karen, we're so excited to have you here. This is a real, rare opportunity to talk with somebody that has so much information on this topic.

(01:21): So we're gonna just jump in. I would love for you to tell our audience what behavioral design consulting is. 

Karen Haller (01:28): Just to break it down in a nutshell, behavioral design uses color and design psychology to improve well-being, support positive mental health, and really, the whole thing is about influencing positive behaviors. So what I'm really interested is in creating real measurable change, and so my work goes beyond the aesthetic or beyond something that is quite surface level. 

(01:54): And I really, uh, want to investigate and go deep into human and social, um, conditions and, uh, what influences us. And then I turn all of that into what it is about the human experience, in balance with nature, that I can create that will create this positive change. Because if there's something we need in the world, right? 

(02:18): We need our environments to nurture and nourish and support us in, in whatever area that is. Whether that's residential, whether that's commercial, you know. Brands, products, whatever that is, color can- is- is so powerful, that I'm very much about looking at how we can do this from a behavioral level. 

Sue Wadden (02:38): So how do you do this? How do you employ this behavioral psychology to what you do for design? Tell us, tell us everything. 

Karen Haller (02:44): So when I work with businesses and I work with, you know, and- and design professionals, because quite often, I get brought into troubleshoot. So they might have put a design scheme together or- or done something and maybe something's not working, or the client's not happy or something doesn't feel right. And quite often, I get brought in to have a look why, and so I have a process that I work through. 

(03:06): So through all of my investigations, through all of my, um, you know, th- through the many years, like, nearly 20 years in doing this, is that I look for patterns of behavior. I look at the way that we work, the way that we respond. And very much again, still in balance with nature, because color psychology, I know it's got a bit of a bad rap. 

(03:28): And it- there's see, you know, a lot of people calling themselves color psychologists. And so if you just put all that to one side, if you really are looking at creating change, we are looking at creating change from the behavioral level. So that's where I always start. I always look at what other behaviors that we want to see in the space. 

(03:46): So it's, you know, the context, what the intent is and what the outcome it is that you want. And when we are looking at... I mean it's, you know what I'm saying now is very, very high level? It's much deeper than that. 

Sue Wadden (03:57): Yeah. So, you know, I'm gonna ask you, like, so dig into, like, a specific example. What would be a- a- a way behavioral color science can help change a behavior in an interior? 

Karen Haller (04:09): So ju- I'll give something that is really a very, very common one and just something that everyone will- will get straight away. So fast food restaurants don't just use red for the sake of using red, and it's got nothing to do with stimulating the appetite. That's- That's a myth that red stimulates the appetite. 

(04:30): What they want you to do is they want, and because their- their market is- is children, so they want children to get excited. And there's the whole pester power, so they want- they want the kids to get excited. But they, because it's fast food, they don't want people to sit and linger. 

(04:47): They want people to get in there, eat quickly and go, because that's their business model, is- is, you know, this quick turnover. And what red is doing, red is helping to support the behavior that they want to see in their customers. So you would- you wouldn't then go and use light red because, which is a soft pink, because that would do the exact opposite. 

(05:12): So red physically stimulates and it physically is a call to action. It physically gets us moving and motivated, so we're in, we eat, we're out. Pink is physically soothing, like a soft pink, so that would be more, we would get in there and we would just physically relax. And they don't want that because they want people out. 

(05:34): So (laughing) they wouldn't- they wouldn't use that as a color, no, because that's not their business model because it doesn't match what they want to do. So that's just, uh, you know, I just give that as an example because it's something that everyone understands. I'm sure virtually everyone has been to McDonald's sometime in their life. 

(05:52): You know, I know I did as a kid, and I was jumping around, you know, because I was just so excited because I was there, but it was, yeah, quick in and out. So yeah, that's just an example. 

Sue Wadden (06:03): Is there a physiological response that you could talk about that- that sort of would educate the listeners on what that means? 

(06:11): Like again, you, that stimulus, that red stimulus when it comes in, could you speak to that a little bit? I think that would be interesting. 

Karen Haller (06:18): So what color does is when it's- when we, um, take in color and we take in color through our eyes. And again, this is gonna be really just a very quick snapshot. But what we're doing is, um, it's coming in through to the hypothalamus, and this is same with all colors. 

(06:35): All colors we have an emotional reaction and emotional response, and there are positive and adverse reactions or traits that we get from every color. It just depends on what the context is and whether we're feeling the adverse or the positive. So when it comes in through our eyes, it goes to the part of the brain then, which is the hypothalamus. 

(06:56): And that governs our, um, you know, like, all our emotions, our metabolism, our stress, our, um, appetite, our sexual reproductions, I mean everything. And so what we are having is when we see red, and because of the wavelengths of red and the way that it does hit our eye and the response that we have to it. 

(07:19): What the science and what the theory suggests is that it- it impacts us on a physical level. So red is, therefore, stimulating because it's so highly saturated, and highly saturated colors stimulate. And then a soft pink soothes because softer colors are more soothing for us. So we are physically soothed with red. 

(07:43): Sorry, with p- soft pink. And we are, um, ca- can't think of the word I was gonna say then. And so we are stimulated from red, because of the saturation of the color. 

Sue Wadden (07:55): Like I've read before that your blood pressure elevates a little bit if you're, you know- 

Karen Haller (08:00): Our pulse rate. 

Sue Wadden (08:00): ... surrounded by red. 

Karen Haller (08:00): So it's like our pulse, yeah, the pulse rate. And so that's because that's the excitement. So we can be heightened from fear, because if we see red, we see blood, you know, we can go into a panic. So that can, we can go into overwhelm, so that's the adverse side. 

(08:15): But then it could also be that we're excited, and so that heightened state can be excitement or it could be panic and overwhelm. It depends on what the context is and what's happening, as to which one you're going to feel. 

Sue Wadden (08:28): So I think it's important to talk about then how color can positively affect our sense of well-being then. 

(08:34): So if you can get heightened excitement with a color that's stimulating, like red, talk a little bit about the other side of the, um, the equation, which is like colors for well-being, and what's been your experience there? 

Karen Haller (08:46): Yeah. So again, it's all to do with behaviors, because a lot of people think well-being means that we all pick really soft colors. And so we are almost anesthetized, like, it's virtually turning our emotions off. So, you know, beiges and whites, and light grays, um, they think, "Oh, this is- this is calming." 

(09:07): But what it can often do is it can- it can have almost the same detrimental effect by switching our emotions off, to the same extent of switching them on t- too much. So we've always just done a swing from one side of what I call the- the pendulum to, you know, to the other. I always, always go back to what are the behaviors that you want to have in that space? 

(09:30): Because well-being could actually be fun and joy, if that is the context of the space that you're creating. And so therefore, you would pick colors that were more lively because you wouldn't go and pick gray. Because how... You know, you don't have fun and joy and playfulness in gray, not for the majority of people. (laughing) Do you know what I mean? 

(09:50): So it's always down to what- what are the behaviors that you want to see in the space? And then it's creating the color palette and the design style that will support that. Because what it's doing on a subconscious level, is that it is telling us to play. It's telling us to be excited, it's telling us to have fun. 

(10:12): Or it's telling us, like, in a spa, "Now is the time to relax," because all the colors are very soft and very soothing. And you wouldn't go around running around because- because the- 

Sue Wadden (10:23): (laughing) 

Karen Haller (10:24): ... environment is telling us to- to relax. 

Sue Wadden (10:27): Right. 

Karen Haller (10:27): So it does this all on a- on a subconscious level. So it's really- it's really, really powerful the- the- the impact and the effect that color can have on us. 

Sue Wadden (10:36): So I'm curious, uh, where cultural symbolism comes in and per- personal preference into this. You know, ultimately, we're dealing with clients and there are perceptions. 

(10:46): So wh- what challenges do you run into, or do you related to cultural norms with color and sort of preference? 

Karen Haller (10:53): Great question. So I still go through my process of looking at the behaviors and looking at what's ideal for the space, and then I start looking at what the other considerations are. Because you need to have something quite, like, for me, the way I work is that I've got a- a- a solid baseline to work from, but then things can change. 

(11:14): Because it could be that there is a cultural significant color, or it could be that the colors that were picked for the behaviors might have a detrimental meaning in a certain culture. But then I've got something to work from, do you know what I mean? 

Sue Wadden (11:29): Sure. 

Karen Haller (11:29): So then I know. And then a lot of personal, um, associations is that this is when quite often, I will have a conversation with the individuals, because what they're doing is they're making the design that is for somebody else about them. So if I don't like, you know, bottle-green because it was the color of my school uniform. 

(11:53): That's- That shouldn't stop the design from going ahead using that color, if it is the right color for the scheme. So that's when I have a chat with the- the- the stakeholders or whoever is involved, to see how we can, you know, mitigate this or how we can move beyond that. And not let having the- the right color in the scheme being affected, because they had a bad experience with it. Do you know what I mean? 

Sue Wadden (12:22): I do. That is no small thing. 

Karen Haller (12:25): No, no. 

Sue Wadden (12:25): Is it? 

Karen Haller (12:26): And- And- And also, you know, it- it's, yeah, and it is no small thing because the emotional attachment to that color can be very, very strong and very traumatic. So it's really important that that is handled with real- with real care. Um, and then there is people who are colorblind, people with low-color vision. 

(12:45): Then there's the neuro. You know, uh, people who have, uh, you know, neuro, um, uh, dif- different neu- neuro styles. There is so many other things that you then need to take into consideration. Um, and so by doing that, that's how you start to really create, um, not even inclusive design, like, you know, a universal design, something that is. 

Sue Wadden (13:10): So then on the flip side of that, are there colors that you would recommend to discourage certain behaviors?

 (13:16): Do you ever take that approach in talking about, you know, things you want to stay away from in a space, based on what the behavior of the space is going to be? 

Karen Haller (13:24): Yeah, yeah. 

Sue Wadden (13:24): That's a mouthful. (laughing) 

Karen Haller (13:26): Yeah. I don't know if you heard about this, but in Australia, they had cigarette packaging and they did the packaging in a- in an olive green. 

(13:38): And it was actually called, it was called the world's ugliest color. 

Sue Wadden (13:41): (laughing) 

Karen Haller (13:42): And they deemed this particular kind of sludgy, olivy green for cigarette packets. So when someone got the packet, they would have association straight away with this green, with it being kind of really sludgy and, um, sort of decaying. Which even when I say it, it just sounds awful. 

(14:00): In- In the context of cigarettes, the whole idea was that they took the branding off and they put this green on, and the idea was that they're trying to deter you. And I think they might've introduced, I don't know if over here, in England, if they just introduced the white, plain packaging so that it wasn't distinguishable. 

(14:20): And hoping that the- that no one could recognize what brand, so people weren't walking around going, "Oh, I've got this brand." You know, they were trying to- to, um, get people to stop. 

Sue Wadden (14:31): Sort of make it a generic? 

Karen Haller (14:33): So that's some- 

Sue Wadden (14:33): Yes. 

Karen Haller (14:33): Yeah, yeah. 

Sue Wadden (14:34): Unbranded. That's interesting. 

Karen Haller (14:36): Yes, but color is used all of the time. You know, when things are on sale and we go into a shop and they're, and you see the red, the red sales sign. That's to influence us to get excited and to buy on impulse. Even if we had no intention of buying, we see the sales sign, "Oh my God, I've got to have it." (laughs) 

(14:55): Don't even... And a lot, all- all the logic has gone out the window at that point. At that point, you are so emotionally involved because the color is, it- it's exciting, you know, to- to go and get this bargain. And then normally you get home, you go, "Why did I even buy that?" (laughing) 

Sue Wadden (15:10): I didn't even need it. 

Karen Haller (15:12): So yeah, color. 

Sue Wadden (15:13): They always say that color sells, right? It has that- 

Karen Haller (15:16): Color sells, yep. 

Sue Wadden (15:17): ... absolute impact on buying behavior. So let's talk a second about trends. Um, I live in a world where color trends are constantly in the conversation that we put out into the world, because we do see things shift and change. So I would say, and you had referenced, we don't- you don't always lean into trends. 

(15:34): But there are movements in color that, I think, could impact behavioral specification. So for instance, dark colors are really trending here in the United States to create calming spaces, almost the sense of security and nurturing almost cave-like, you know, you kind of cocoon. So it's not just- it's not just light and ethereal, but it's also dark, rich colors that are important. 

(15:55): Is this something you study and apply as these things change, or is it pretty separate? Like, your psy- psychological response to colors is kind of more constant than trends? 

Karen Haller (16:05): I'm fascinated by this because human behavior, look, we're always evolving. We don't- We don't stay static. So watching what happens in different countries, and watching what is happening economically, soc- sociopolitically, um, what's happening in different, um, peer groups. And then watching the colors that they pick, because what that is telling us is what people need. 

(16:31): So this need to cocoon and this need to hide away, um, don't know if that's really the right term, but people perhaps retreating and- and just don't want to know what's going on outside. And there's different ways we can do that. We can do that by numbing ourselves. Um, we had a really big phase of going through gray here in the UK. 

(16:52): And really, yeah, they were, people were so stimulated outside, that they would come home and in their gray homes. What they wanted the gray to do was to- to, you know, lower all of this emotional stress and load that they had. But what gray was actually doing, it was what they thought was calming them, it was actually draining them. So people were very, very tired in their own homes. 

(17:19): Then they would wake up in the morning and need, like, a double espresso, and then they would go out into this chaotic, stimulating world. And so their emotions were low and then high, do you know what I mean? So that's not healthy. So what I do, is I look to see what it is that they're needing. 

(17:38): And what colors would support them in a better way, in a more healthier way that wasn't this such a, you know, uh, such a seismic shift in- in, um, emotions, because that does not bode well for well-being or for you. You can't thrive in an environment like that. 

Sue Wadden (17:57): I 100% agree. In fact, I can show an example. So my, I'm- I'm recording here in my dining room, and over our winter break, I, uh, painted it black. Uh, it's definitely a color that has been trending here in the United States and I- I love the look, but you know what? I'm going to be repainting soon because simply the contrast is too high. 

(18:17): There's, I call it, high lows and it's too much contrast ratio for the small space that it's in. So I'm going to take it back to a softer, creamier neutral because I want it to be sort of a more harmonious environment. So it's- it's- it's great, you know, as experiences I've had- had, and I've been doing this a long time. 

(18:36): I wanted to try this, it didn't work, so you know, now I have the flexibility to go try something else, but it's fascinating. It's fascinating to me. 

Karen Haller (18:44): But it did work, because now you can feel that and now you can see, "My gosh, look at the effect that this color is having on me? It might be on trend, but it's not right for me." 

Sue Wadden (18:51): Exactly. 

Karen Haller (18:52): And then instinctively, you just know something's not right. And so just because it is on trend or fashion or because, you know, a lot of people over here in the UK, the neighbors have got it. 

(19:02): So it must be- it must be a good color if they've got it. 

Sue Wadden (19:05): For sure. 

Karen Haller (19:05): Do you know what I mean, like, keeping up with the Joneses? 

Sue Wadden (19:08): Yes. 

Karen Haller (19:08): But really, it's about us really reconnecting back within and going, "What is right for me? Because my home needs to nurture me and needs to support me." 

Sue Wadden (19:19): Yes, absolutely. Well, I feel like we could go on and on about this topic, because there's so much here. 

Karen Haller (19:25): (laughing) 

Sue Wadden (19:26): But it just, in a quick thought, what's changed over the last 20 years in understanding mental health and neurodiversity? I know if somebody asked me that, I think, I would have an answer, uh, which would be COVID, right? 

(19:37): And our understanding of sort of wellness and well-being. Have you seen anything else that sort of shifted your perspective? 

Karen Haller (19:43): No, that was seismic. I think it was always coming. I'm not sure if designers really, because it was never seen as the sexy end of design. 

Sue Wadden (19:52): Mm-hmm. 

Karen Haller (19:53): Do you know what I mean? 

Sue Wadden (19:53): Agreed, yeah. 

Karen Haller (19:53): So I think it was always there, but only a few people really did it. And it wasn't necessarily seen as the fun, joyful, especially over- over here. Come COVID, it really then thought actually this- this is really important. And it's probably a good thing that came out of it because people who were neurodiverse, have set up their homes to really work and support them and they could control their environment. 

(20:25): Whereas coming back into the workforce, back into work, they- they- they couldn't do that, so this is really making everyone up their game to create environments that support everyone. And that, um, allows people with different needs, to be able to self-regulate and to be able to control their environment in a way that allows them to do their best work. And I'm sure Joscelin will agree with me. 

Sue Wadden (20:56): [inaudible 00:20:56]. 

Karen Haller (20:56): Right? Yeah. Because you've got to do your best work, and you can't go into a workplace and it holds you back. 

(21:04): And that's why so many people don't want to go back into the workplace, because they get their needs met at home and they can do better work there. 

(21:11): So yeah, there's a lot of change that needs to happen and it is- it is coming, but yeah, COVID definitely, definitely made a huge change. Yeah. 

Sue Wadden (21:20): Would you say, if you had to characterize neurodiversity in one statement, it would be designing an interior based on the needs of the occupants? 

(21:30): Is that? I'm trying to think of like a boilerplate statement for our listeners. 

Karen Haller (21:34): Yeah. So people who are using the space, um, and it has to be designed in a way, even has to be future-proofed for those that are still coming in that haven't come in yet. 

Sue Wadden (21:45): Right. 

Karen Haller (21:45): Which is why I work with behaviors, because you can... We- We already know the different behaviors that we will want in the space in different spaces so that people can move around and self... What I mean by self-regulating is that they can then choose the spaces that they want to work in, to give them what they need at that moment in time. 

(22:05): So bosses and managers have to be flexible and it's, uh, it's a completely different way of working. But if you want your best out of your employees and you want them to- to really thrive and do their best work, it's a whole new way of- of- of in the workplace, instead of sitting at a gray desk and- and a wall of gray banked. 

(22:25): Because we're not- we're not worker bees, you know, we- (laughing) we're not- we're not in a factory. We're- We're human beings that need to be supported, so that's a lot of sound bites, but sorry. (laughing) 

Sue Wadden (22:38): That's okay. 

Karen Haller (22:38): Yeah. 

Sue Wadden (22:39): There, it's just a huge, huge topic- 

Karen Haller (22:40): It's massive, yeah. 

Sue Wadden (22:41): ... we're only scratching the- the surface on. So how do you stay up to date on all of these pieces, parts and information, um, on color psychology, new discoveries in mental health? 

(22:51): Because I'm sure they're happening all the time now. And then design, what are your, some of your go-to resources, um, if people want to learn more? 

Karen Haller (22:58): Yes. So- So I go, I- I listen to lots of talks. I read lots of books, I read lots of journals, magazines, but I also look at in different industries, so what's happening in the food industry? What's happening in, um, you know, lots of other industries? 

(23:14): And because I've got, uh, quite a good, solid baseline of color and design psychology, I look to see what I can map over. I go, "If that is working in that environment and that's working in that industry, how can I bring that over and how does it map across into behavioral design?" 

(23:32): And then I come up with new theories, new hypothesis. I then put them into my frameworks. I test them, you know, because you have to constantly test and measure to see how things are going. 

Sue Wadden (23:44): Okay. How do you test and measure? Two seconds. (laughing) 

Karen Haller (23:46): How do I test and measure- 

Sue Wadden (23:47): Yes. 

Karen Haller (23:48): ...two seconds? Well, in two seconds, you look at what the behaviors were before, you look at what the change is, and what you want to create as a change. 

(23:56): And then you measure at the end. It's far more complex lot than that, but it's that. 

Sue Wadden (24:00): The result. Wow, that's amazing. Well, okay, so you have some resources that you could share that you've created. 

(24:07): And I'm sure our listeners would love to check those out, so do you want to talk about that a little bit? 

Karen Haller (24:10): Yes, thank you. On Instagram, I'm Karen_Haller_Colour. And then I have a website that's KarenHaller.com, and there is a free resource there, which is an ebook all about, uh, color that people can download. And then I've got a little minicourse on a special offer after that. 

(24:30): And then one thing I haven't said is that I'm the author of The Little Book of Colour, so this book. But what they can do is they can... And this is the book for the everyday color lover, but what people can do is they can go to thelittlebookofcolour.com website. And there, the first chapter, they can download that for free. 

Sue Wadden (24:48): Wonderful. 

Karen Haller (24:49): To see if- if they resonate with it. 

Sue Wadden (24:51): If they want to know more, I love that. 

(24:58): We're gonna welcome to the show Joscelin Mackey. Joscelin is NCIDQ-certified and registered interior designer in the Metro Atlanta area. 

(25:06): And she is the founder and principal designer of Accessible Design Studios. Joscelin, thank you so much for coming to the show. Joscelin Mackey (25:13): Thank you for having me, Sue. 

Sue Wadden (25:14): Well, we have talked about a lot in this first half hour, so I want to talk about your space, which is a hot topic as well. 

(25:22): So Accessible Design Studios is all about health and beauty in commercial and design. So tell us more about that and what led you to this, uh, to specialize in this type of design? Joscelin Mackey

(25:32): Well, um, actually Accessible Design Studios' niche came as a result of during COVID. So I actually have a broader design background that comes from senior living, from hospitality. 

(25:49): I've designed everything, I say from, the only things I haven't designed is K-12 schools and- and prisons. (laughing) 

Sue Wadden (25:56): So maybe sometimes the same thing, right? Joscelin Mackey

(25:59): Right. So, but so if you- if you look, I was actually designing, um, sky clubs for one of our larger airlines. And then when COVID hit, that's when I decided, "Okay. Well, I'm going to, you know, I have my certification, my license." And I- I launched out then and kind of narrowed down to health and wellness, because that was really my passion. 

(26:23): And they were small enough projects for me to just knock out because we were all locked in. So until I could grow my team, get my, you know, storefront coming from a more corporate, architectural background, so that's what you would see. But actually, my love and passion falls in everything Karen has said. 

(26:41): So I didn't know if I could refer back to a lot of- of things that were in her segment of- of when she was speaking. 

Sue Wadden (26:47): Yeah. We- Well, and that's why we wanted to, um, sort of bring you guys together to talk about the behavioral side, but then the application side as well. 

(26:54): So talk a little bit about how health and beauty has changed, uh, you know, talk about it since COVID, right? We all experienced this global experience. And then what have you seen that's really changed the nature of design in that space? Joscelin Mackey

(27:08): So as far as health and beauty is concerned, more people were, have amplified the need for health for self-care. So if- if we want to talk about that a bit, um, it's gone from where we were hustling and bustling, and everything was about outside of ourselves. Um, growing other people's interests to turning into now we're locked in. COVID has hit, mental health issues have arrived, have, um, risen. 

(27:35): And now, how do we nurture ourselves? So then from that point, there's been an increase in, um, in spas and med spas and all of those things in the United States, and people, um, turning to better ways to take care of themselves. And so the need for our focus to switch to, you know, more, um, health and wellness industry, um, is- is where we fell. Um, and that happened because and during COVID. 

Sue Wadden (28:07): I think that's an interesting distinction. I can, you know, I would say 15 years ago it was, there was a spa that's where you went for a facial, or you know, whatever the thing that you love to do and that was once or twice a year. But now do you see many more? Um, I- I don't want to, um, I want you to tell the audience this. 

(28:25): I don't want to... (laughing) I don't want it to come from me, but like, what other applications are you seeing that are new? I don't know, microspas, what are we calling these? It's very specialized, so, you know, like, grab-and-go facials. You don't- you know, you can quickly go get, you know, obviously your nails done, that's a thing. 

(28:42): You can go to infrared sauna spas, you can go to cold-plunge spas. Like, it- it's just, it's awesome the amount of, uh, well-being, um, enterprises that are going on. So talk about a little bit of the design aesthetic that's in the spa space now. In that space, not just spa space.

 Joscelin Mackey (29:02): Well, um, it- it's all about what the owner wants to see. So everything that I do is- is how... What kind of reaction and feeling do you want your client to get when they walk in the door? Is it that you want it to be moody, um, or is it that you want them to feel uplifted? What it always goes to wh- what is their brand? Who is their clients? What is their target market? 

(29:27): And when they walk into their, um, their space, how are they able to connect with that brand? And- And all, a lot of that is done through, um, a feeling. So if we can go back to the- the neur- the neurology of- of the situation, is how the- the textures, the colors, the lighting, it all goes back to how do you want this client to feel when they walk into your space? 

(29:53): So some of our spas are dark, they're dark, they're moody, they walk in and it's cavernous. It's because they- it's that's what the brand is and that's who, um, their clients are. And then some of them are very light and bright, in which you would consider your typical spa, sand, sandy, um, beige, bright, um, your typical sp- spa experience. And the gamut, it runs the gamut. 

(30:20): But it always goes back to, um, my first conversation with my client is h- what is the feeling? And then how can I use color and textures and lighting to- to, um, and- and all the science that goes behind that, to- to drive that, um, feeling? 

(30:39): So that when their client walks in the door, the first thing that they get is that feeling. And- And because it's all a feeling that they're selling, so even though they have all the same services, it all goes back to wh- what do you want your client to feel? 

Sue Wadden (30:55): And how they differentiate from each, from the sort of yes, the mass that's out there, I get that. So we talked a lot about commercial applications, uh, but I would pose the question to both of you. 

(31:06): You know, what are some ways that homeowners could apply, um, the- the principles that you employ, um, and have talked about? And I guess we'll start with Joscelin. 

Joscelin Mackey (31:16): Well, I mean, like Sue, I mean, I've also written a book. 

Sue Wadden (31:20): (Laughing) Oh, oh, we will definitely talk about that. 

Joscelin Mackey (31:21): So this is me, (laughing) and my focus is Designing for the Senses, so it's all about neuroscience. 

Sue Wadden (31:29): Oh, wonderful. 

Joscelin Mackey (31:30): This is my passion and this is what I drive into my spaces. I would echo everything she said, um, as well as going into the neurodivergent. So along with that, I have a client that we're working with now who, um, does autis- autistic, um, services, autistic clinic. And it goes back to, you know, that red versus the- the paler shades of red and- and which one is more appropriate for their client? 

(31:58): And as she said, our homes, we can dial that in and make that make sense at home. Um, and so sometimes it's just how do I communicate to my commercial clients that we do need to design, uh, for the senses? We need to design, um, in a universal way. And we can't just narrow into who we think we should be, but we have to be a platform, um, for a multitude of people with different needs. 

(32:28): And so in the home, you know, we can- we can say, you know, what is- what is our need at home? So when you, um, if you are in an environment where you're extremely stressed at- at work and everything is highly driven, then at home you're probably gonna need the opposite, right? 

(32:46): So those people probably, you know, would either, um, want something brighter, lighter, uplifting, um, to their senses or, um, you know, just the opposite. You know, if you're somewhere where, um, the cocooning or what you thought that you needed during that time, so maybe is that- is that what you need? So it's more about talking about what is your lifestyle outside of that house, so that when you come home, you can be nurtured? 

(33:14): And how does color and texture and lighting affect you? Um, and how can we support you at home so that you can, you know, gird yourself in a way that you're ready to go back out (laughing) that door, and deal with all those things that may be triggering? And in a neuro, uh, diverse means really triggering to those people. Um, and then be home and- and be nurtured with what is- what is it that you need at home? 

Sue Wadden (33:38): So I think we all understand, uh, the- the calming, you know, we want to come as our home is sanctuary. We want to create a space that, you know, we feel good in, and we're- we are, um, renewed and energized when we come home after a long day. 

(33:53): How do people add high energy into a space maybe for your kitchen? You know, you entertain a lot, you want to take it up a notch in some spaces. Do you, um, can you guys offer any insights, uh, for homeowners on ways to elevate? Because we are so centered on well-being, like, how do you amplify at home?

 Joscelin Mackey (34:11): Absolutely. So at home, um, I mean, I would say nurturing, but nurturing's not the same for everyone. As we'd go back to Sue, I mean, what Karen was saying, nurturing might mean one thing to one person and something to someone else. So nurturing to, um, someone that loves color and saturated color, that might be what they need at home. 

(34:31): You know, all of that, um, the things that they find inspiring might be the rainbow of color, you know, and- and that might be what- what their need is, like, how do you want to feel at home? And so th- the answer's always gonna be different for everyone, um, based on what's going on with them outside of the home? 

(34:53): So if your home's gonna be your haven, your nest, it's what is it at home that you need? Is it the soothing bright? Do you want to feel like you're at a day at the beach? (laughing) And I can give you an example. So when we bought our home initially, um, when our kids were younger, the walls were those, um, jewel tones. 

(35:12): So we had the green, the red. However, my husband was fresh out of the military as a Marine, oorah, high energy- 

Sue Wadden (35:19): (laughing) Right. 

Joscelin Mackey (35:21): ... with- with little kids. And so I learned quickly, "He's being triggered, he's being triggered by the red." 

(35:27): He's somewhat colorblind, so he's also seeing the green as red, (laughing) so- 

Sue Wadden (35:32): It was everywhere. 

Joscelin Mackey (35:33): Right? 

Sue Wadden (35:34): Yes. 

Joscelin Mackey (35:35): So and- and it was literally taking all of that out of our space. The heavy wood, um, because back then, it was heavier wood furniture. 

Sue Wadden (35:43): Mm-hmm. 

Joscelin Mackey (35:43): Taking that out of the space, and ushering in beachy tones, colors of outdoors. And my kids said basically, "Dad has turned into the zen master." Like, it just because that's what supported him and that's what he needed, where some people they walk into that, that would be mind-numbing. 

(36:02): And so they need the color to give them the energy and the, you know, so that they feel good at home. But it all usually has a lot to do with, you know, how you're wired, but also home being a haven. How do we set up that as a structure that nurtures you so that when you go out the door, um, you have somewhere to come back to that recharges you to get you ready to go back out the door the next day? 

Sue Wadden (36:28): Joscelin, that was awesome advice and a great example. So before I jump over to Karen, how can people find you and how find your book? 

Joscelin Mackey (36:35): Absolutely. (laughing) So Accessible Design Studios, uh, with an S, is our website. On there, you'll also find a little link that has a lot of little, um, free resources and tips about interior space and- and such. Um, my book, um, you can Google it, there's a lot of different avenues to find it, or you can just go to Amazon. 

(36:58): Um, and it gets into all things, um, design, um, as it relates to the senses and everything (laughing) that Karen said, basically ditto. (laughing) It's- It's in the book, so as you were speaking, I could- I could nod my head and say, "Yes." 

(37:15): Um, there's so much about this, and- and everything from how restaurants, um, intentionally the red, but also the yellow makes you kind of have a- a happy banter. So they want you to have great fun and conversation, but they want you to leave quickly. 

Sue Wadden (37:30): Right. (laughing) 

Joscelin Mackey (37:31): And then you find that, um, restaurants that aren't red and yellow usually use the blues. 

Sue Wadden (37:36): Right. 

Joscelin Mackey (37:37): Because they know that their food's gonna take a long time, and so they want you to linger but feel relaxed while you're doing it. 

Sue Wadden (37:43): (laughing) 

Joscelin Mackey (37:43): So I just appreciated everything she said and, um, it's so in my book. 

Sue Wadden (37:49): This is, yes, you guys are- are, um, very, very, (laughing) very well-paired guests, I will definitely say that. And we'll put all the resources that we've talked about in the show notes. 

(37:58): So if people obviously are interested, they can find, um, you know, that sort of resource. But Karen, can you- can you help a homeowner through this process as well, your take on, um, how to bring this sort of behavioral science to their- to their space? 

Karen Haller (38:14): Yeah. So pretty much what Joscelin said, I mean it was, um, I was nodding as well because (laughing) we are all different. Um, no human is, you know, human being is the same. We are complex and it is personal, um, and our needs are personal. And they do vary from, you know, even from day-to-day what we need. 

(38:37): So I would probably, just the- the only thing really to add on from what she said, was that looking at every room in the house has a different need, a different function. So I'm not very much about paint, you know, doing the whole house the same, but it's looking at what the different needs are in the different rooms. (39:01): How is it that you want to think, feel, and behave in every space? And then creating with the colors, with yeah, with the textures, with the shape, with the patterns, with the lighting, creating that scheme that gives you that what you need. Um, because, you know, your example of if somebody, someone might want a really relaxing living room, but they might want a lively kitchen. 

(39:29): So I need a lot of color in the kitchen to be motivated to cook, because if it's really relaxing, I'll be really relaxed and I won't want to cook. 

Sue Wadden (39:38): (laughing) 

Karen Haller (39:38): So the colors would- would need to, you know, excite me. So, you know, to answer that question that you asked before about, you know, how- how if someone wants a more lively kind of a kitchen, is just is picking more saturated colors. 

(39:54): So the higher the saturation of color, the more stimulating that color will be. So that is oranges, that is bright yellows, that is, um- 

Sue Wadden (40:04): Terracottas. 

Karen Haller (40:05): Well, ter- terracottas could be a little bit more soothing, um. 

Sue Wadden (40:09): They could be. 

Karen Haller (40:09): But the bright yellows, you know, things that are really high, high saturation, that is there's- there's no relaxing or sitting back with those. Those colors are like, "Come on, kind of let's- let's get moving, let's play." So you wouldn't want those colors in the bedroom, because you would- you need to sleep and you need a bedroom that lets you sleep. 

(40:31): But most importantly, that lets you restore, which is, excuse me, what a lot of people aren't getting. They're not getting good quality, restorative sleep that allows their nervous system to relax. That allows their whole body just to relax, so that when they wake up in the morning, that they are fully restored and energized. 

(40:52): Quite often, they- they wake up and they're still exhausted and still tired. So you want, so that's why every space would have a different function, and so the colors would be different. And it's not to make it look like, this is a saying that somebody used that I love. Um, it's not like to make your house look like Disneyland on acid, right? 

(41:10): It's not to do that as well, because you're going to have soothing colors, you're going to have mid-tone, you're going to have, you know, saturated colors. Stimulating, soothing, so you're gonna have a mix depending on h- how it is that you want to feel in that space. 

Sue Wadden (41:24): Right. Would you put, would you recommend, you know, for a homeowner, put a pen to paper? When you start thinking about doing a room, write it down. 

(41:32): Like, "What are the things that you want to experience when you go into this particular room?" Is that a good place to start, just to take some time? 

Karen Haller (41:39): Yeah. Don't start with the colors, because if you start with colors, you'll get so emotionally trapped in it, "Oh, I like this one. I don't like this one." 

(41:48): So don't, look, I always say it's like fight club, you know, the first rule. (laughing) And even with my clients- 

Sue Wadden (41:54): (laughing) 

Karen Haller (41:54): ... they- they go, "Well, where are the colors?" I go, "We don't start with color first. We start with what are the behaviors? Yeah, how do you want to think? How do you want to feel? How do you want to behave? What's the purpose of the space? How are you gonna use it? What behaviors do you want to see people doing in this space? How- What's the reactions, the responses?" 

(42:14): And then when you've got that, and that is what my book will then help with is- is looking at then what colors will elicit that? Because it's not just one color, it's putting a palette of colors together that will create that. Then you start going and looking for those colors that match what you've- what you've written down. 

Sue Wadden (42:34): Joscelin, what about you? What are your... What would you say, pen to paper, same thing? 

Joscelin Mackey (42:40): Absolutely. So I mean, before we get into this color palette, it's on- once again, what is it? What is the response? What do you need to receive in this space? How does this space support your life? And then from there, we can start talking about color. And then too, uh, one of the things is I may start speaking of a color that you've had a- a negative, um, reaction to. 

(43:03): What, you know, you might've been in a car accident and the car that hit you was purple. Well, now you have a negative feeling about purple. Okay. So maybe we don't use purple, but we can also use other colors or maybe a- a different tone or, um, saturation of that color to still get you there. Um, but not specifically, you know, grape, (laughing) uh, which might've been the color of the car. 

(43:28): So exactly, I mean and- and everything that Karen has said, I- I would ditto it. It's how do you want that space to feel? How does it support you? How are you using it? And then if you do need one space that's- that's highly saturated, um, energetic, do you need a pause or a neutral zone between that and the next space, right? 

(43:49): So that your whole house doesn't, um, present but that you can weave that, um, the color throughout so it's still harmonious. It's not, you know, you're not singing a different, um, a different song in each space. But it's a complete, um, harmony from one space to the next where, um, you can take that vibrant color. And maybe just it's in, um, a piece of art on a wall that's- that's more, um, of a subdued space. 

(44:16): And then you take another color from that overly saturated space that's energetic, and maybe you put that in another space so that you can kind of, you know, weave it through the space. But then every space doesn't have to be a carbon copy, is it's what do you need and how does each space in your home support you? What I love is, um, a lot of people are doing this. 

(44:37): Instead of their kitchen, they're making that fun space, their powder room, their small half-bath, and they just can go crazy and that's really a place where you can experiment. And then realizing that paint is paint, you can paint, experiment, see what you love, live with it for a while. And if that's not what it is, then you can take that, learn from it, dial it down, and- and then try another color. 

(45:01): Um, or- or bring in textiles, and then from there, be able to say, "Okay. These are the colors, this is how I'm responding to these things." Figuring out why. A lot of people don't even know why they like what they like, especially if it's in their home. They don't know necessarily what it is, but if you like something, you see it outside, bring it in, live with it for a while. 

(45:23): And then maybe you can start identifying what it is about that you like, and then use that as a- a stepping off point for that space. 

Sue Wadden (45:30): Build from there. Well, we are just at time. You guys have been an excellent, excellent guest. I so appreciate all the insights. Again, um, people can reach, read your books, right? 

(45:41): If we confuse them even more about how to select color, um, there are great resources here and we just appreciate the conversation. And thank you, guys, both so much for joining Colormixology. 

Karen Haller (45:52): Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you. 

Joscelin Mackey (45:54): Thank you. Thank you for having me.