Vern (01:27):
Hi, Sue. Thank you so much for having me. And what an exciting episode to be on.

Sue (01:32):
It's a big deal for us. We couldn't be more excited that you're the one we're talking to, because you have such an amazing career in design and I can't wait for your take. I think everyone's gonna love this color capsule of the year. But I wanna get your insights and kinda the behind the curtain talk on design. So, first, for those that are just getting to know you, tell us about yourself. Tell us about how you started and how did you being this journey in design.

Vern (01:56):
Oh my gosh. Well, I sort of took a very unconventional path. But I wouldn't do it any other way. So, uh, my parents came to the US as immigrants when I was just two months old. And they gave up these very promising careers. They fled China during what was called the Cultural Revolution, that's when communism came into China, and moved to Hong Kong where I was born. And then, we moved here when I was two months hold.

(02:22):
But like so many Asian kids can identify with, you know, your parents, you know, culturally they, there's so much reverence for the medical field that there's a reason, folks, why all of your doctors are Asian.

Sue (02:35):
(laughs)

Vern (02:36):
Um, but they, you know, they sat me down early and they were basically like, you know, "You have two choices in life. You can be a doctor or you can be a doctor. You choose." So, I was a premed student at the University of Virginia where I did my undergraduate work studying chemistry and economics, which nobody, I think, associates with design at all. And I was spending every spring, summer, winter break working at the transmitted and transfused viruses laboratory at the-

Sue (03:03):
(laughs)

Vern (03:03):
... National Institutes of Health.

Sue (03:05):
Wow.

Vern (03:06):
I was working on asymptomatic HIV and hepatitis C. And every day, I would go in and be in this lab, and I would think, like the two thoughts in my head that were always resonating were, why are these walls this horrible shade of yellow? And why do we have to work under such horrible fluorescent lighting? So, this is not what most people at NIH are thinking about.

Sue (03:31):
Right. Would never even cross their mind, yes.

Vern (03:33):
So, for me, you know, the indicators were all there that I should be doing something else. I applied to medical school, I got in, and then two months before medical was about to start I finally worked up enough courage to say to my folks, "I can't do this. I know I'm meant to be an architect. I know I'm meant to design. And I've known that since I was a little kid." And, and they actually knew it too.

Sue (03:58):
That's pretty incredible. That is a question that a lot of young designers ask, and young artists, like, "How do I tell my parents that I wanna go into this path?" So, kudos to you.

Vern (04:07):
Well, it, I mean, thank you for the kudos, but, you know, it took me a long time to work up the backbone to be able to, to introduce the [inaudible 00:04:16]. So, my was great. She said, you know, "Go do it. You're gonna be great. I support you." And so, I pivoted and ended up here in Atlanta, Georgia, because I graduated from Georgia Tech in a dual Master's programs. I got my Master in architecture and at the same time got my MBA at Georgia Tech. And I was sort of their guinea pig at the time. It wasn't an official program, but they wanted to see if it could be done. So, they sort of let me do this very ambitious path. And I'm so grateful that they did. But, you know, I really wanted to have that MBA to make my folks feel better and more secure that, you know, if I didn't (laughing) make it in the design world I wasn't gonna be stuck in their home for the next 20 years living in their basement.

Sue (05:01):
Right.

Vern (05:01):
Uh, that there would be a way out. And I'm so grateful, now that I am in the design world that I, I have this breadth of experience, right? I have the sciences, I have the business, I have a broad liberal arts education. And it's the thing that I tell young designers all the time when they ask me for advice, you know, "What should I do?" I tell them two things. Number one, get as broadly educated as you possibly can. You may not think that math is important to what you're doing, or science or business or history or literature. But all of those things inform our decisions as designers. And you will be in a much better position if you can, you know, speak to those things and pull those references.

(05:48):
The other thing is I always tell them, "You have to travel." You know, as great as the internet is, you can Google whatever location and kinda see it on your screen, it's not the same thing. It's not the same thing as being there, seeing the colors, seeing the patterns, soaking up the culture.

Sue (06:05):
Seeing the light, yes.

Vern (06:07):
The light and the way that it interacts with things. You know, most people in our profession still, even though, you know, we're so grateful to have all these digital tools, at the end of the day, we're designing spaces for pe-people to inhabit, like real spaces for real people. And that really requires you to be out in the world.

(06:27):
So, I graduated from Georgia Tech. I got a job as an architecture intern at the largest firm in the Southeast. I was working on convention centers, shopping malls, and corporate office buildings.

Sue (06:40):
Sure.

Vern (06:40):
And I was just doing my drawings like every single day I was... At, at that time, we were still doing a lot of hand drawing-

Sue (06:46):
(laughs)

Vern (06:47):
... which really tells you how old I am.

Sue (06:49):
Totally. Hilarious.

Vern (06:50):
Um, yeah, hilarious. But you can really tell a lot about somebody's design point of view by their drawing style, which you can't necessarily tell from how they draw in CAD, right?

Sue (07:00):
Yes, agreed.

Vern (07:01):
So, the head of interior design at that point came to my desk and she said, "There is something about you that makes me think that you would be an incredible interior designer." She said, "I wanna give you a break." And she gave me the corporate headquarters of Disney Cruise to design just as Disney was launching their cruise division. And it was such an incredible, uh, leap of faith on her part. And to this day, I'm eternally grateful that she saw something in me.

(07:26):
And then, from that point forward, I ended up doing both design and architecture, and then went on my own in 1999. In the year 2000, I won designer of the year, and came to the attention of the folks who were putting together the first season of Trading Spaces.

Sue (07:41):
Amazing.

Vern (07:42):
And-

Sue (07:42):
Well, wait. Before we get into that, 'cause I have a lot of questions about that, there's a lot of people in our audience that aren't necessarily in the design field. So, can you talk about the difference, like how would characterize the difference between an architect and somebody that would really lean into interior design? Like, what are the little differences? They seem subtle, but they're not so subtle.

Vern (08:02):
Yeah. You know, there's actually an incredible amount of overlap. But I think, when you train to be an architect, they allow you to sit and take what they call the NCIDQ, the National Council of Interior Design Qualifications, which allows you to officially call yourself an interior designer and not an interior decorator. And the reason why you can do that with an architecture degree but it doesn't work the other way around, meaning if you have an interior design degree, you can't sit and take the architecture re-registration examination, is because of all the additional technical training that you have to have and structures, uh, learning about concrete structures, wood structures, all those things. And also, sort of thinking about things on a different scale, meaning, you know, you're dealing with sites, buildings on sites, and figuring out, uh, spaces from, from that standpoint. Not that interior designers don't do that, they do have to do that.

(08:58):
But all of that additional difference kind of really helped inform me as an interior designer, really kind of helped give me a different dimension to my work. You know, I am kind of knows as being very exacting. Uh, you know, I used to get made fun of on Trading Spaces all the time because ii was like, "You know, that's off." And somebody would say, "No, it's not." And we would measure. I'm like, "It's off." And they're like, "It's a sixteenth inch off." And I'm like, "Yes, but it's still off." And I think, you know, having that more technical precise training kinda just informed the kind of designer that I am. And it just made me a different kind of designer. And that's great, 'cause we hall have our talents, we all have our specialties. And it's really about being true to who you are in your experiences.

Sue (09:44):
Absolutely. Well, so that's a big jump then into television.

Vern (09:48):
Yes.

Sue (09:48):
I can tell you, Trading Spaces, I was in college when that show really started taking off. And it was the first time that I, on mainstream television, saw interior design in action. And it, it was TV, right? We'll talk about that a little bit. But it was such a pivotal moment. And I loved that show, even though it was wacky and silly sometimes in what you guys had to do to make it, you know, TV ready, it was incredible. So, talk about that show, um, and kind of that path.

Vern (10:17):
Yeah. Well, first off, now everybody knows how much younger Sue is than me.

Sue (10:21):
(laughs)

Vern (10:21):
Like, Sue was in diapers w-watching Trading Spaces.

Sue (10:24):
I, I was not in diapers.

Vern (10:27):
Um. (laughs) Well, you know, it's funny, when they offered me the opportunity to do the show I said no. And I actually said no three times, because I had just won this big award, designer of the year, and it was a huge platform. And, uh, you know, they were sort of explaining the premise of it. "We give you the opportunity to use $1,000 in two days to transform a room." And I was like, that doesn't sound like an opportunity.

Sue (10:50):
(laughs)

Vern (10:51):
I, I mean, my clients will spend $1,000 on a pair of lampshades. But what I realized after that is that it was indeed an opportunity, and I'm so glad that, you know, they came around even after I said no. Because if we wind ourselves back to 1999, 2000, when that show was first coming up, great design really just sort of belonged to the top rung of the socioeconomic ladder, you know, the 1%. And we've come so far from that now that we don't really realize that anymore.

(11:25):
But that show was instrumental in sort of saying, no, you know, great design should belong to everybody. Everybody should be able to access great design. Everybody should be able to benefit from great design. Because when you have a home that is tailored to you, to the way that you function, to your aesthetic preferences, there's no better feeling. It optimizes the ability to have these incredible relationships with your friends and your family because you're in a space that feels just sort of set up for you.

(11:57):
And I use this analogy all the time. I sort of say, you know, we are so used to taking a suit or, you know, a pair of pants or whatever to the tailor and having it fitted to us. And we then know how great we feel when we put on that suit or those pair of pants, because they fit our unique bodies. Weil, your home is just that on an expanded level. And so, that show really kind of made design so much more accessible, and it kind of pushed manufacturers to really make design elements that were at different price points. And I love that to this day, because color and paint has always been the great equalizer, right? Because a gallon of one color is, is not substantially different in cost from a different color, if at all. And so, it really... Paint has always been that thing that allows you to kind of fully express yourself, even if you don't have big budget to work with. But that show kind of propelled other elements to sort of meet that same task, which I'm, I'm so grateful for.

Sue (13:07):
Well, the show, I mean, we could go on about what that sort of design in TV has done for the world, uh, design across all levels. That's amazing. But we're gonna wanna know, like what were some of the insights? Like, what's the inside-

Vern (13:20):
Oh my gosh.

Sue (13:21):
... baseball, if you will-

Vern (13:22):
Yeah.

Sue (13:22):
... into those transformations, 'cause they were crazy. There were so fun, but they were fast.

Vern (13:27):
They were so fun, but also I think, you know, being my age today, there's no way I could've done the show the way that I did it back then. I think, in total, I did 67 episodes over the first four seasons. I left after the first four seasons, but the show continued. I left to go to HGTV and start on my own show. But I did 67 shows in the first four seasons.

(13:49):
And you know, everybody who knows that show knows that there's the situation where, at the end of day one, you look at the homeowners, and you say, "Okay, here's all your homework for the night. Finish installing the wood floor. Finish putting the stone cladding on the fireplace. Hang that light fixture. Finish painting the room." But the truth of the matter is, because I used to tackle really big projects, that's, again, the architectural training coming in. You know, there's just no way that you can expect people who've really are really never done this before, have very limited experience doing this before, to stay up all night, finish these projects, and be camera ready the next morning with their best energetic selves. That's just not feasible.

(14:35):
And so, on 66 of the 67 episodes, I stayed up all night finishing that work. And we usually send the homeowners to bed-

Sue (14:46):
Oh. (laughs)

Vern (14:47):
... 2:00, because, 2:00 am, because, you know, you don't want them to be zombies in the morning. You want them to be funny. You want them to be themselves, awake, and looking great. And so, I would stay up all night finishing those floor installations, finishing the paint, finishing the cladding on the, the fireplace. And then, I would have to show up for the next scene and be like, "How did homework go? Oh my gosh, you totally got it done. Congratulations." (laughs)

Sue (15:12):
That is, that is unbelievable. In my mind, there always like a crew doing the work. So, I picture like, all right, homeowners are going to bed, they'll do some pictures, they'll do some, you know, shots of them working on it. And then like this swarm of people come in and, and fix the rest of the room, but that was you. Like that's unbelievable.

Vern (15:28):
Yeah, because, you know, there had to be... For that show, there had to be this certain amount of jeopardy, meaning, will they finish? Will they not finish? What will happen? And you can't create that jeopardy if you have a huge crew who ensures that they get everything done, you know. But it also was an incredible opportunity to really bond with my homeowners. Uh, many of them became very good friends, and many of them I still stay in contact with. And, um, you know, because, you, it's, it's sort of like being at war. (laughs) You're, you're-

Sue (16:03):
You're in the trenches 100%.

Vern (16:04):
You're in the trenches together and you have to overcome this huge, what is seemingly an insurmountable task. So it does really bind you and makes you a team.

Sue (16:13):
Yeah. You know, in hindsight, the older Sue Wadden looks at that show, and I just get stressed out.

Vern (16:18):
(laughs)

Sue (16:18):
But younger Sue Wadden was like, "I wanna do that. I wanna go on that show. I wanna do what Vern does." So, thank you for sharing that. Because if you have not seen those episodes, find them somewhere. They're probably on Hulu or some other streaming service.

Vern (16:30):
Discovery Plus.

Sue (16:31):
Yeah, they're great.

Vern (16:32):
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Sue (16:32):
It's just fun. It was the beginning of design on TV, which I super love. So, you mentioned paint, right, and the transformative power of paint. So, I'm gonna take this back a little bit and I'm gonna talk about our color capsule of the year, and really the reason why we're doing this. Uh, we've been talking about a color of the year for 15 years. It's a super successful campaign for us. We love talking about color at Sherwin Williams for sure. But after 15 years, you kind of learn some things. And I think that it's time to celebrate more than just one color. So the idea of a color capsule really came to the surface and that we wanted to explore all the colors. Right? There's more than just one thing that's happening and coming up in trends. And this was an opportunity to pull in amazing colors together and create a capsule.

(17:20):
So I'm gonna talk a little bit about this pallette and kind of the colors and why they were developed, or sort of curated, more so, that's a better way to say it. And then, Vern, I want your take on it. So, first is Grounded, which is this beautiful, warm brown. We really, really seeing browns rising throughout this fall season into 2025, '26, and beyond. And I think that this is a result of this return to earthy neutrals. Post-COVID that was the thing that we've all been talking about. And really what's emerging is this luxurious, beautiful, beautiful brown. Vern, what's your thoughts on these rich browns that we're seeing?

Vern (18:00):
I definitely feel like that is where we're headed. I feel like it's the hug that everybody needs. And I think that it's so sophisticated but at the same time malleable and adaptable. You know, you just sort of think about the incredible warmth that something like wood brings into a space. And this is such a wonderful way to kind of introduce that same kind of lovely warmth in other ways. I think it, it's so versatile. It can go, you know, very sleek and very contemporary. It can go global. It can go, you know, very clean lined and, and more contemporary and modern or traditional. So, it's a really wonderful forward-looking color. And, and I love the fact that it's so adaptable.

Sue (18:42):
It is. And it's kinda the right shade. It's not too yellow in undertone, and it's not too cool. It's a really usable brown.

Vern (18:48):
Yes.

Sue (18:49):
We have not seen brown sort of in the color and design space since the 90s. You know, we're talking about our start in design in the, in the late 90s. And that's when browns were really important. And so, we've taken a pause, right. We, we spent some time in the beige and gray universe. And now, we're coming back to this warmer, deeper, richer tone, which is beautiful. And the the interpretations that are most, I think, elegant are really traditional. You're starting to see a return to the classics. It's not just about Scandinavian minimalism. It's about antiques, and heritage interiors again, which this color is stunning.

(19:22):
And then, we talk about Raincloud. So, Raincloud is kind of a new color for us. It's from our Designer Color Collection. Uh, and teals, and these deep teals are also gonna be important. And it's a nice color balance to the warmth of Grounded. And, Vern, I don't know if you love blue and if you use blue in your work. But these deeper teals are s- Like, am I looking at one behind on screen, or is-

Vern (19:44):
Yeah.

Sue (19:44):
Or is that Na-

Vern (19:44):
This is, this is my office. This is Naval, which-

Sue (19:46):
Naval.

Vern (19:47):
... was color of the year a few cycles ago. Right?

Sue (19:49):
2020. Yes, it was.

Vern (19:51):
Yes. So, now you know when the last time I painted my office.

Sue (19:55):
(laughs)

Vern (19:55):
Um, but, yes, I mean, I definitely love blues. And I think Raincloud is really beautiful. Because, you're right, we have seen the prominence of green kinda seeping into everything, and these sort of green-blues. But what's nice about Raincloud is that it is a little, for me, like muddier or dirtier than a lot of the teals that you see, which generally means, for me, longevity and the ability to, to play better with others.

Sue (20:20):
Definitely.

Vern (20:21):
And what I mean is that, you know, more elements can come in. And really kind of Raincloud is very accepting of a lot of different elements, which I love.

Sue (20:29):
Yes, and teal is great. It's the fusion of like, you know, blue and green together, so the versatility there. And this particular shade is really understated. So it's not really in your face. It's not gonna look like you're going to, you know, Key West. It's really sophisticated. You know, it can't be reminiscent of the deep ocean, like that sort of tone. And it's absolutely gorgeous.

(20:51):
So, from there, we have put a yellow in the collection, which coming of our... We had a campaign this year called The Loneliest Color where we celebrated sort of our Kingdom Gold, which is a brighter, cleaner expression. This Bosc Pear is a richer, almost an autumnal version of Gold, but no less important. Yellows are really on the rise. We're starting to see yellow exteriors, people painting yellow cabinets in their kitchen. We're seeing it in designer magazines, which is unexpected, absolutely. We've not seen yellow gain, you know, since the 90s again, since we had the Tuscan kitchen. Do you remember the Tuscan kitchen days?

Vern (21:28):
Oh, yeah.

Sue (21:30):
Oh my gosh.

Vern (21:30):
(laughs)

Sue (21:31):
It was, it was so, it was such an important color in the 90s. And it's starting to peek back in. So, what are you thoughts on yellows, these sort of warmer, sunnier colors?

Vern (21:41):
So, I, I personally am a, a yellow fan. I know, you know, people think of different colors in different ways. But I sort of grew up with a lot of, I would say less yellow and more gold, which I would put this-

Sue (21:53):
In that category.

Vern (21:54):
... kinda in that category. Yeah. Um, it's a very important color for Chinese people, for Asian people in general, and signifies a lot of positivity. And so, I personally love the color, and I love this exact shade, this Bosc Pear Shade, because, again, it has depth. It has warmth. It feels, again, like I can see what you're saying that it's, it's sort of referencing of the, the past with these Tuscan kitchens but in a much more kind of updated, sophisticated way.

Sue (22:24):
I absolutely love that description. And again, people have to get used to yellow, so I love that even just a touch of this color can really just bring gorgeous harmony to a room.

(22:34):
From there, we're gonna move into... We'll talk about neutrals in a second. So there's three neutrals. We pulled White Snow, which is our cleanest white, sort of our pallette cleanse. And then, a color that I really love, it's Sun Bleached, which is almost like a canvas sailcloth white that's got a touch of coolness to it, so it doesn't go really, really creamy. I don't know if you know this color, it's a newer color for us. It's really beautiful. So, just put a pin in that. We'll talk about that in a second.

(22:58):
But I wanna talk about Chartreuse Green. So we have seen this color in our trend forecast, I don't know, the last five years. It was never like the primary color that was coming out of forecast, but a really important color. So do you ever use a color like chartreuse in your design lexicon.

Vern (23:16):
All the time. I love this color. I love chartreuse in, in general. But you're right, I think that if you are working with different shades of chartreuse to this specific one, they can be a little more on the acidity side.

Sue (23:32):
Yes.

Vern (23:33):
And they can be a little, you know, to the point where it isn't something that you would put maybe all over your walls. Maybe you think of it more as an accent or an accent pillow or something like that. But this version of chartreuse, again, feels a little warmer. I like the term, some others may not think of it this way, but I, I like things that are slightly muddier.

Sue (23:54):
Yes.

Vern (23:54):
Because, for me, again, it allows it to be used more pervasively. A color like this, you know, the SW 0073, you could use over an entire room, and it would feel livable and inviting and warm and not necessarily like blinding and in your, in your face.

Sue (24:13):
Definitely. And this color is from our historic line, so there's a, there's a muted quality that, again, is just really usable. People don't always understand that about a color. You know, you don't go to the, the color display or your fan deck and grab the brightest expression. 'Cause that probably, nine times out of 10, will be too much on a wall.

Vern (24:30):
Right.

Sue (24:30):
Um, so this version is really usable. And then, finally, I wanna talk a little bit about Mauve Finery. Purple is not my favorite color family, but it's growing on me. I don't know what's changing about me.

Vern (24:42):
(laughs)

Sue (24:43):
'Cause I just love this color. So do you ever use plumby, mauvey purples ever?

Vern (24:49):
I'm, again, I'm like you. Purple has never been really my thing. But I think that this feels like a neutral kind of version of purple or, or mauve, which again, I think makes it a lot more adaptable and a lot more usable. And it feels really fresh. Like, you know, we've been hearing about mauve sort of bubbling up, but not this kind of specific version of it, which I, I like infinitely more than what I've been seeing.

Sue (25:18):
I do too. I don't know if it's the botanical. Maybe it's just what we're seeing in the world, on our social feeds that we're seeing a little bit more color. But I'm coming around, I'm coming around to mauve. But we'll see what everybody thinks. But the color is really beautiful.

Vern (25:31):
It is.

Sue (25:32):
So as we talk about key moments, I wanna pull it back to the design space. People are fascinated by the shift from gray to something else. So what's your take on where neutrals are at and what's going on?

Vern (25:45):
Well, I mean, we have lived int he world of gray for what seems like forever, right? It has been a decade (laughs) or so, it feels like, maybe even more.

Sue (25:55):
Maybe even more.

Vern (25:56):
And, yeah, it has really felt like thee time where we are collectively saying, "We're ready to move on." Now, I understand why gray was so pervasive for so long, especially these grays that have these warmer undertones, because they go with everything. And that's a thing about warmer undertoned colors, things that have warmth to this, is that they are more accepting. They are applicable to a broader range of styles. So I definitely feel like we have moved definitively now to that warmer spectrum.

(26:32):
And what I love about this color capsule, this pallette, is that everything that I'm seeing has a bit of warmth to it. And when you have a bit of warmth to something, it really does allow you to introduce all the other things that you love. It allows you to kind of make a space more reflective of you genuinely. And it also allows to kind of more seamlessly come together. And it's adaptable to, again, a wider range of styles.

(27:02):
And that's what I would say about this color capsule collection is that you don't have to be pigeonholed into like, okay, you know, if I'm a traditionalist, this color pallette works for me, but if I'm contemporary, it doesn't. This actually works for everybody, which is great. You can pick and choose and kind of really make it yours.

Sue (27:19):
Well, and let's talk about that. So the idea of celebrating a capsule collection, a pallette if you will, versus just one color-

Vern (27:26):
Yes.

Sue (27:26):
... you know, how does that open up the opportunity for designer or even a homeowner really?

Vern (27:32):
Yeah, I think it opens, it opens it up for all of us, both designers and homeowners, anybody who is looking to paint their space. Because, you know, I, although I understand why the messaging is so powerful and so clear when you say, "Okay, this is our color of the year," I don't necessarily know that that's as helpful to people as giving them a pallette, giving them a capsule collection. Because, you know, if you don't necessarily resonate with what the color of the year is, then it's just kind of over. But-

Sue (28:06):
Agreed.

Vern (28:06):
... when you have a pallette, you have the ability to kind of really see what is truly reflective of you. And that's why I always ask of people, I always say to them, um, "Let's be honest. Let's have an honest conversation about who you are and what you love. Not what you think you're supposed to love, but you really actually love, what you really respond to." And having this broader, wider selection, having a pallette instead of just a single color, really then makes it so much more inclusive.

Sue (28:36):
I love it.

Vern (28:36):
You know, it brings everybody on board.

Sue (28:38):
On board. Can you see yourself using this pallette maybe?

Vern (28:42):
100%. 100%.

Sue (28:42):
(laughs)

Vern (28:43):
Actually, now that I see what's going on, I've been given this task of designing these two model units for a luxury development, and I've been asked to really have them be reflective of what's happening, um, now and just slightly in the future. And so, I'm gonna use this pallette in these two units in, in two very different ways. But I'm so excited to be able to do it.

Sue (29:09):
You have to show me the after pics.

Vern (29:11):
I would love to.

Sue (29:11):
I'm dying. Um, 'cause I just think you can do, th-the combination is, is limitless with what you can do, so I'm excited to see your take on it. Thanks, Vern.

Vern (29:19):
Of course.

Sue (29:20):
So, just a couple more questions. You know, you're a really, really extensive world traveler. You go a lot of places. So how does this pallette remind you of places you've been or, really, how color is kinda being used in different countries? Is there a, is there an intersection there?

Vern (29:36):
Always. And that is one of... You know, as we were talking about earlier, uh, in this discussion, that is the, the value of travel is that you not only are soaking in somebody else's culture but also how they use color and how those colors come together. You know, so for example, this past summer, I've been to London like dozens of times, but I've never had the opportunity to go outside of London. So I was in Somerset this past summer with my family. Uh, we were staying on a property that was sort of a, a renovated 17th century estate that was on thousands of acres. It was incredible.

Sue (30:14):
Amazing.

Vern (30:15):
But, but so many of these colors, to me, kind of reference where I was. But then, I can also say, you know, then we were in the City of London and we were in the south of France. And you, you know, you just see how like different colors, when they're paired together, completely give you a different message and how, you know, there is a sort of universality with, with so many of these colors.

Sue (30:37):
And that's really like until you're out there in the world seeing what's-

Vern (30:40):
Yes.

Sue (30:40):
... going on, it's hard to, it's hard to do that through, you know, Pinterest or the places that you s- that you're searching for color. So if you can get out there and see color in the wild, I obviously highly recommend it.

(30:52):
So, we're kinda wrapping up our call. But I do want to talk about your new book. I know it's-

Vern (30:56):
Yes.

Sue (30:57):
... not ready to come out. But tell our audience, our listeners, what you got planned.

Vern (31:01):
Yeah, so I have a new book coming out with Union Square Press. It'll be out in September of 2025. And it's about how to really make your home reflective of you using the three most powerful tools we, as designers, have, which are color, pattern, and texture. How do those three elements come together, and how do you easily use them to create a home that reflective of you and your experiences?

(31:27):
Let's say, for example, you have traveled somewhere great and you wanna bring a piece of that home. That doesn't have to be in the form of a magnet. It can be in the form of a color pallette, right, just to kind of infuse that back into your home.

(31:38):
So, um, I'm very, very excited about that. My books have always been about empowering people, even people who are not visually oriented, people who are not necessarily design oriented, all those people still want to have home that, you know, support them and encourage their relationships as well. And so, uh, that's what this book is designed to do. And I'm so excited, because in these sections, for example in the color section, we have a color dictionary that sort of breaks down what a lot of these color terms are. You know, you can say chartreuse, but there are a lot of people who don't necessarily know what chartreuse is. And so, we have the descriptors, but we also have Sherwin Williams'-

Sue (32:17):
(laughs)

Vern (32:18):
... uh, definitive opinion on what the chartreuse mean. It's this specific color. You know, what does teal mean? It's this specific color. So, it's wonderful to get solid advice. You know, because you can speak in platitudes forever.

Sue (32:34):
Right.

Vern (32:34):
But at the end of the day, people really need information and they need something solid to stand on. So that's what this book is gonna be about.

Sue (32:42):
I think it's like perfect timing on that. The general public at large is getting way more sophisticated in their color knowledge. We're talking to homeowners about light reflectance value and undertone now. And you know, 15 years ago we were not having those conversations. So I just think it's perfect timing to give people more information, more insight, and kind of the behind-the-scenes look at how designers do what they do. You know, it's a special gift, but it's also something that we love to share with people that love color and design.

Vern (33:11):
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's why we do what we do, right, is to kind of improve people's lives.

Sue (33:16):
Yes. Absolutely. Well, Vern, I so appreciate your time and talking about this impor-important moment in Sherwin Williams' calendar year, but also just about the success you've had and, and kind of the inspiration that you brought to so many people. You're a, you're a legend in this business-

Vern (33:31):
Oh my gosh.

Sue (33:32):
... and just keep going, keep doing great things. That's all I ask.

Vern (33:35):
Oh my gosh. So kind. Coming from you-

Sue (33:38):
(laughs)

Vern (33:38):
... the definitive legend on color, that means so much. And thank you for having me. I could not be more exciting about this color capsule collection. It is really a stunner.

Sue (33:49):
You're, well, you're the best. And, uh, we look forward to talking about your book when it comes out. We'll share that information. Um, we gotta wait a year, but okay.

Vern (33:56):
(laughs)

Sue (33:57):
And, uh, thanks for everything, Vern. It's been great.

Vern (34:00):
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Sue (34:07):
In this next segment, we had the chance to talk to our designer of the month, Vanessa Chaverri-Gratz of Gratz Interiors. Vanessa is known for using curated, heirloom pieces to create meaningful and unique designs. And we're really excited to get her take on our color capsule of the year and chat with her about her favorite Sherwin color, which is Palm Leaf. So, hi, Vanessa. Thanks for joining us.

Vanessa (34:28):
Hi, Sue. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

Sue (34:31):
I can see from your gorgeous shirt and your backdrop that Palm Leaf is, uh, sort of your color. And, uh, it's one of my absolute favorites. So, thank you for being such a green advocate.

Vanessa (34:41):
You know, it has accidentally become an identity, and I'm not mad about it.

Sue (34:45):
Oh, no, it's so good and so to- It's just perfect timing for it. So I've shared our 2025 color capsule of the year. And I'd love to hear your reaction on our, kind of of our new concept.

Vanessa (34:57):
Oh my gosh, I saw the collection and I immediately thought, "This is gonna make the lives of designers so much easier."

Sue (35:04):
(laughs)

Vanessa (35:05):
You know, I think so many people have such a hard time or struggle with decisions and choice. And I think you laid it out beautifully. And this is gonna be really exciting for a lot of folks to be able to just, one, have just a cohesive pallette throughout their home. But two, remove that anxiety of, "Oh gosh, I have to choose one color. I have to choose two colors to got together." You've you've done the hard work for them.

Sue (35:28):
Do you think that designers could use that pallette in that way? Do you think it would be interpreted that way? I mean, that's sort of the intention and that's what I've hoped for. But I'd love to hear like some ways you could use it or just a little bit or your kinda takeaways.

Vanessa (35:42):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, again, one of the challenges a lot of folks struggle with is just is choice. It's, it can be debilitating for some people. And I think designers alike, especially when you're working with a client that's new to you or a space that you're not familiar with. And so, I think that allowing a capsule to be presented and shown that, no, these are, these are cohesive colors, these are colors that offer versatility, these are, these are multiple colors you could use together or separately in one home, I think it's gonna be kind of a game-changer for the designer world. But I also think for just for the regular consumer, you know, I think of going into a paint shop and looking at those pamphlets of what colors go well together, and that is, it's such an amazing tool and resource for so many just to visually see how you could pair something like Malabar and Chartreuse together, when maybe, on your own, you never would've thought to put the two to- the two together.

Sue (36:40):
Yeah. That was my favorite part of this capsule. We took usable hues and like trend forward hues and we kind of merged them together to be really cohesive. And I think that's what I'm most excited about, like celebrating this bigger world of color, this bigger color story. So, talk about some of the challenges, designer space, if it's just one color. Like, you know, we've loved our singular color of the year. But I feel like this approach is just a modern take.

Vanessa (37:06):
Yeah, absolutely. I think when you have one color, one of the challenges can be, oh, is this just trendy? Is this something that's not gonna transcend seasons or climates or even generations? And I do think that that's something that, just over time, maybe we learn and we adapt that, no, like a singular color can work over years or things of that sort. But I do think that that is one of the biggest challenges is, okay, here is this, you know, this one blue or this one green, and how am I gonna make this work for the next decade in my home?

Sue (37:34):
(laughs)

Vanessa (37:35):
But having so- (laughs) you know, something like a capsule saying, "Oh, no, I've got this gorgeous blue hue, and I have this really rich creamy warm, and then a fun mauve," I think it's allowing people to explore outside of their comfort zone. And that's gonna make, again, just our jobs that much easier, which is exciting.

Sue (37:56):
I love it. Well, and we've, you know, you've obviously seen the full pallette. And I've talked about each individual color. But what's your take on the actual pallette? Does it feel modern and fresh? Or is it a twist, is it a classic with a twist? Or what's kinda your professional take on the pallette? Just so for the audience, um, they'd love to hear a description.

Vanessa (38:14):
Yeah. Absolute- I think this pallette, if I had to put it like in one sentence, is it's a modern twist with a node to classic design. You know, I think it makes it really adaptable for various aesthetics. I think the inclusion of things like bolder colors, like Chartreuse or Raincloud, alongside other grounding and neutrals allows for a lot of flexibility in design. Um, I think it can be easily adapted in a really modern home with cutting edge interiors, or it can be put into something really traditional and elegant. Just depending on how you pair those colors and how they're put proportionally, there's a lot of adaptability here.

Sue (38:51):
And we ack- You know, we mentioned your love of Palm Leaf and how it could be incorporated into this pallette. You can just add it in. So you could take this as your core, like your essential collection, your capsule. And then fuse in some new hues to like kind of personalize it and make it your own, which would be beautiful.

Vanessa (39:06):
Absolutely, I totally agree.

Sue (39:08):
Is there any like favorite combination of colors that really work for you?

Vanessa (39:11):
You know, I, I had a hard time thinking about this, 'cause there's, I feel like there's so many ways I could combine these colors in like interesting new or maybe just unexpected ways. But, uh, I think going back to my like just general classic style, Raincloud, Malabar, and Bosc Pear just feel so classic. They feel historical to me, which is very in line with my aesthetic and my vibe. I love Raincloud. I love that it's just a calming blue. It's, it's, you know, it's both warm and cool. But I think overall, the combination create just like a really nice balance. So, if someone likes cool tones and likes warm tones but is not sure how to combine them, this is a great way.

(39:50):
I also think it's just like it's a, it's sophisticated. The, the combination of it, it's sophisticated, it's warm, it's rich, it's unique. I mean, just so many descriptors here that give me goosebumps in the best way. I, I think it's an awesome combination.

Sue (40:04):
I love it. I love it. Well, we so appreciate that. Um, thanks for your, your take on our, our color capsule of the year. But I wanna know a little bit more about what you're seeing in design. So, what have been your favorite kind of recent color in design moments? Like what are you seeing trending, whether it's painted cabinets or full color immersion in spaces, like that sort of color drenching? What are you seeing in design that's really interesting?

Vanessa (40:27):
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think color drenching became really popular a couple years ago, but it is definitely still gaining a good amount of steam. I, myself, only started color drenching rooms, you know, a year ago. And I'm obsessed with it. But something that's really new and interesting is I am seeing folks use paint in ways that you would normally use wallpaper. So think of large, bold stripes floor to ceiling in a room. So, in a bold bathroom or in a mudroom. I'm loving the inclusion of those thick stripes that they're doing just with multiple paint colors and painter's tape. It's so interesting. I need a space to do it myself. I love that I'm seeing that everywhere.

Sue (41:06):
I was gonna say, have you tried it before?

Vanessa (41:07):
I have not tried it.

Sue (41:09):
(laughs)

Vanessa (41:09):
I am a little fearful of the fact that I can't draw straight lines, so I'm worried if I can tape a straight line. (laughs) But-

Sue (41:16):
It is a-

Vanessa (41:16):
... I might need a professional for that.

Sue (41:17):
I was gonna say, you're, you know, you're an up-and-coming designer, but back in the day like stripes were the thing. And, uh, it was, it was always the challenge to mark a straight line and get your tape on. And there's definitely ticks, like tips and tricks to painting stripes.

Vanessa (41:32):
Yeah.

Sue (41:32):
Um, so I can share those with you after. Um, it's, yeah-

Vanessa (41:34):
I would-

Sue (41:35):
... it's not for the faint-of-heart, but the results are really beautiful. And again, you achieve this like stunning visualization with just paint color. You know, so the average homeowner can give it a try. And, and we love that about these kinds of color moments. Well, anything else that you're seeing that, you know, people, that you're reacting to that you think people would want to know about?

Vanessa (41:53):
You know, this is a plug outta my own personal love, and as you can see behind me, but there's a lot of use, I'm seeing a lot of use of green this season, coming up in seasons, you know, with Palm Leave recently being a color of the month.

Sue (42:06):
Isn't it beautiful?

Vanessa (42:07):
It's so gorgeous. And it just being... I think that people are really realizing, and this may be something that is historical that's not coming back into play, they're reali-realizing that green is a neutral at the end of the day. And we talked about this earlier, it, it's a hue that could easily be incorporated into this capsule so beautifully whether you are a modern take or you're looking for something classic. And I love that I'm seeing that, I love that so many people are adapting to that. I, I don't think I'm a new adopted to it, but I clearly am a big, big fan.

Sue (42:35):
Yeah. You know what's interesting? We've seen like these yellow undertone greens really start to rise up. So, the first part, you know, from like 2020 to 2024 it was kind of like cooler undertone greens that were really important, sages and silvery greens. And now it's shifting to these yellow undertones, which are, obviously, Palm Leaf, and it's a deep form. But also khaki. So neutrals with like a green undertone it's basically khaki. We haven't talked about khaki in a while. So again, I think these natural neutrals are expanding to include browns and greens as kind of like your go-to neutrals. And it's really fun to see, because green has such a huge range. You can go from mint to evergreen and there's thousands of colors in between. And green is kind of the color of this decade, which is wonderful and, obviously, meaningful for you.

Vanessa (43:21):
Of course, of course. I'm already trying to figure out how I'm gonna incorporate Malabar into some of my green rooms, because that kind of khaki, soft undertone, it's, it's gonna be stunning.

Sue (43:31):
It'll look stunning. It'll be great companion. So I, I absolutely love it. Well, how can listeners find you?

Vanessa (43:37):
Oh gosh, I'm a little bit all over the internet.

Sue (43:40):
(laughs)

Vanessa (43:40):
Um, but most of what I share is gonna be on Instagram. They can find me at @thegratzlife. I'm also, uh, on Pinterest. I'm on TikTok, I'm on Facebook. Thegratzlife is just my general handle. You can find me at... I share a little bit of everything, whether it's my own home, my own projects, or projects I'm working on for others. Uh, I'm just really excited to share just the creative process in design with anyone that's willing to watch and listen.

Sue (44:04):
I love it. Well, thanks for continuing to, you know, fight the color fight, um, and get beautiful color out there into the world, and thanks for your time today.

Vanessa (44:13):
Thank you so much, Sue. This was great.

Sue (44:20):
Thank you so much for listening. You can find Vern at vernyipdesigns, all one word, on Instagram. To order samples of our 2025 color capsule of the year, homeowners can visit swcolorchips.com, and design professionals sign up for Pro Plus account. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing, leaving us a review, and telling the other design and color curious people in your life all about Color Mixology. Tune in next time for a conversation about designing joy-filled spaces, choosing what's personal instead of what's popular, and the impact of unexpected design. See you next time on Color Mixology.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
This podcast was produced in partnership with Amaze Media Labs.